Episode 03: Spatial Audio and Immersive Content
Today’s guest is award winning Composer Joel Douek. He is the co-founder of EccoVR, a pioneer in spatial and immersive audio, as well as composer of many film and television productions. Joel’s work has been featured in over 80 documentaries, including some of the most prestigious projects of the last few years - those of naturalist Sir David Attenborough. His music has brought many a scene and story to life.
Episode Notes
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About Joel Douek:
Website for Sound: www.eccovr.com
Website for Music Composition: www.joeldouek.com
00:00:02:03 - 00:00:07:11
Marcie: Welcome back.
00:00:07:13 - 00:00:24:19
Christina: Now I am so excited about our guest today Joel Douek. He is an award winning composer. He is a pioneer in the realm of spatial audio and Immersive Audio. Through his company which he co-founded Ecco VR and he is the composer of the last nine David Attenborough documentaries.
00:00:24:21 - 00:01:00:03
Marcie: Wow. That is absolutely amazing. I'm excited to speak to Joel today because I feel like audio is one of those areas in content creation that's completely undervalued, and I feel like when we talk about creation of content over the next decade, if we look at where we were 10 years ago in content creation, with sound we didn't have things like Siri. We didn't have things like Alexa and I believe that sound and voice is going to be really important to the way that people are creating content.
00:01:00:06 - 00:01:25:00
Marcie: Also in the way that we are going to interact with that content, whether that's your voice or sound, in addition to that if you think about it we're a podcast right. We're only about sound. So I think that having someone like Joel here to talk about why sound is what got him interested in content creation, will really set the stage for where the podcast is going.
00:01:25:03 - 00:01:42:13
Christina: I know, we're giving we're giving audio it's due here and giving it the first spot and that feels good. Yeah that's good. Well Joel, thank you for joining us today. I was happy to be here. So, why don't you give us a little bit of background about you know what got you into VR and maybe even a little bit before that.
00:01:42:18 - 00:02:20:22
Joel: I was sitting in a restaurant and somebody was giving a demo of VR thing with an oculus on, and they tripped over me literally, and apologized and explain, oh this is a true reality and I said No no I know what it is I work in virtual reality I do sound. Now that wasn't exactly true at the time, but it was my hope and I thought well I've got to make this true. So I contacted that person and we ended up working together for a little bit. And basically what we found is that in those early days of VR, all these VR companies were emerging out of visual effects houses and you know video editing houses and they didn't know anything about sound.
00:02:20:24 - 00:02:45:21
Joel: And so they were kind of just relegating, it's like oh it's stereo is fine, but we did hear some people talking about binaural sound and this is something we've done some work in. So I started investigating it, it turned out there really was a niche for us, because none of these companies really wanted to take that on. And so we would encounter them. I think actually Christina your company at the time, VR Playhouse who walked in the door and you said something like, we are so glad you're here.
00:02:45:23 - 00:03:00:19
Christina: That's right. Yeah. I mean full transparency Joel and I have had a collaborative relationship for years. And in XR and it's been one of the most you know easy and fruitful of my career so, I'm yeah, we've been you know, we've been kind of embarking on these challenges together. Been in the trenches.
00:03:00:21 - 00:03:29:12
Joel: We have been in the trenches and simply put, you know this is new technology. And we felt not only that too much attention was being placed on visual to the compromise of sound, but that if you didn't have sound that represented itself properly and correctly in space, then it didn't support the illusion, it would break the illusion. And so we kind of became evangelists for the importance of sound in VR and now in XR. And you know other aspects.
00:03:29:14 - 00:03:43:25
Marcie: So can I ask you a question Joel? What is the difference between building content in XR with audio, than traditional 2D linear content? What do you, how do you prepare it differently?
00:03:43:27 - 00:04:18:15
Joel: Well fundamentally, you're going to deal with an extra dimension of sound on the TV, the sound is in front of you. In the movie theater, sometimes the sound can be behind you, as well. But if you turn around, all you see is the exit sign or somebody eating popcorn. You don't actually, it doesn't register as really why it's there. In virtual reality, as you turn around the sound needs to come from behind you. But we add another dimension which is height, and so we complete a sphere of sound and that's what we call spatial audio, as distinct from surround sound or inside, and above and below in the way we approach it,
00:04:18:17 - 00:04:55:02
Joel: A lot of the recording techniques we can carry over from film, but not all of them, because as we know the VR camera sees everything, including microphones and so you either have to hide your microphones very well or plumbed in places or come up with you know more creative solutions. So in film you use the boom a lot, right? That's the best recording Mike but you can't have that in VR. And so yeah we had to start getting really creative about it. That's in the recording when you get to post-production, really what you're taking is these individual elements and then you are effectively panning them in this sphere, where you want them to be using new technology.
00:04:55:04 - 00:05:10:11
Marcie: So would you say that if you were looking at a 360 image you are essentially putting speakers around the entire 360 image, where sound is coming from all different areas? I mean I'm getting a visual right now...
00:05:10:13 - 00:06:12:12
Joel: We actually go past the concept of speakers entirely, because the sound can be anywhere, anywhere. So if you take the sphere in actual fact, it becomes one giant speaker. So everywhere can represent sound, because we've gotten into an (aerial and the Sonics, where we're effectively creating virtual speakers and you can put them anywhere you want. And that's exciting for sound people to say, I can put anywhere. It's exciting as a composer to say I can put sound anywhere I want you know, I can pan it, I can do anything I want with it I can move it in distance and the other fascinating part is, you know we understand virtual reality, for example to be something that is not about time, arguably all of our media are about a timeline and virtual reality is about space, not time. And when you talk about space, sound has a very very big role to play in that, in helping to inform on the dimensions of the space, for example just through the acoustics, by treating everything spatially, it's a whole different approach to how we create things.
00:06:59:09 - 00:07:06:12
Christina: Now Joel you have a degree in neuroscience, which is probably a little unusual for somebody who's working in the creative field.
00:07:06:14 - 00:08:07:26
Joel: Yeah, I've had a what do they call it a peripatetic life and I've done a lot. I don't even know what that what it means and I've done lots of different things you know in my life. And I did actually set out to you know to go to medical school and I wanted to become a doctor, but then I kind of got sidetracked into neuroscience and, and really enjoyed that. And I think that thread keeps coming back even before I started in VR I'd be so become interested in music and emotion from neuroscientific point of view. Now that I'm in VR, what I know about neuroscience I bring to bear in a lot of the work, I do in the way I approach things. So to give you an example of that, I was reading as one does you know about the prefrontal cortex. So that's the area the brain is part of the frontal lobe right? It sits kind of underneath your forehand, and arguably it's what defines us what's what makes us human. You often hear it's the frontal, it's you know it's the frontal lobe is why the shape of our skulls changed to accommodate this giant piece of brain.
00:08:07:28 - 00:08:11:26
Christina: Before that we had a kind of slow legged bass launched back. Exactly.
00:08:11:28 - 00:08:42:16
Joel: I was reading about it. There was this question is you know what what does it do? What is it that defines us as humans? A lot of people will say well it's our ability to make decisions. Yes, but what goes before that? that? It is our ability to simulate experiences before they actually happen and that way we can figure out whether this is going to be a good thing or a bad thing, something we want to get involved in, something we don't. And that informs then our executive decision making process. I thought about this experience simulation that sounds awfully familiar.
00:08:42:18 - 00:09:28:14
Joel: Virtual reality itself, is an experience simulator. But now I can experience your simulations or your simulations Marcie. I can start to have simulated experience of things that I can't even imagine. And that broadens the possibility. This is what makes us you know able to grow and expand as as people. And so it you know it started to feel like what we're playing with here is something that is is maybe much more important than we know, but that in any event is on the direct line of evolution from, from whence we've come. Right. To develop this part of our brain and then an appendage which is a you know a head mounted display. To then take it further and go beyond what our own brain can do.
00:09:28:16 - 00:09:40:03
Marcie: Yeah. Like augmenting our prevention). Yes sir. Speaking of augmented, we're talking a lot about VR. But where do you see sound and the relationship of sound with augmented reality.
00:09:40:05 - 00:10:27:25
Joel: I think it's going to play, I mean it already does play an important role. I mean I could make the argument that augmented reality sound is actually further ahead than, than the visuals in many ways. But let's let's look at it from this point of view. I like to think about the early days of the Macintosh right that the first graphic interface that they introduced which they bought off Xerox, which had a trashcan and a folder and things started to look like familiar objects. And by virtue of that we felt that this environment was comfortable for us. And we knew what functions things had. OK. So I think in in augmented reality, reality we have this opportunity, opportunity also to start to bring meaning to all the different objects that we're going to put in.
00:10:28:02 - 00:11:05:06
Joel: I think at some point there will be some kind of standardization of the objects that we see, so that we know what it does with the trash. So if we see cash, we'll hear a cash register? Yeah. What. You know we'll develop these kinds of sounds. I call it object sonics right. Which is a ways of helping us identify in this new mold what these things do. So there's a value there, in you know in that in that kind of sense of enriching, but also if you think about in an augmented reality every time I augment something visually in front of you, I'm also blocking your vision right?
00:11:05:08 - 00:11:31:03
Joel: I'm also adding another element that you can't see through. And with sound, I can populate and enrich an experience, add information as you go past the restaurant, through sound without blocking your view. So you know there's a lot of value to, to that. I think people will start to discover that more and more as the augmented reality spaces become denser and denser with objects visual objects and so do you think,
00:11:31:06 - 00:12:05:10
Marcie: Because I have found this happening to me when I put a headset on, that every sense is heightened so much more so then, hearing becomes even more pertinent when you have something placed in your face, in front of your eyes, to where you're really trying to find the cues through your ears, rather than through your eyes to, to look through something, do you understand I'm saying in that, that thats why audio can be so much more poignant inside immersive content.
00:12:05:15 - 00:12:41:07
Joel: Yeah. I mean actually we have it's so important. You know what you're saying is that we have to take that into account, when we, when we're actually developing our content from the sound perspective, because one of the things that we found is any given moment, our brains are filtering sounds out right. Right now it's a pretty quiet place, this one, because it's a music studio, but usually there's an air conditioner or traffic noise and stuff like that. And our brains usually filter that out, so that we pay attention to the things that are important. What we found of virtual reality, is that the brain doesn't know what's supposed to be important or not and therefore it suspends its filtering completely.
00:12:41:17 - 00:13:01:14
Joel: And so it's up to us in our post-production, to make choices and to help the user figure out what is important. And so we've we created effectively a limit of five to six specialized sound making you know objects in any given scene because more than that and the brain could get completely overwhelmed.
00:13:01:16 - 00:13:34:09
Christina: Well you know I think that a lot of the social VR platforms, this is a hurdle that they really need to tackle and junk, because I do a lot of social VR and VR chat and rec room and I would say that actually sound is the biggest annoyance in there, where you know a lot of times we'll be in there with 15 people and then they do it so that if you move away from somebody in the VR space they do get quieter. But if you're standing in a room VR space with ten or twelve folks and everybody's talking and they're having side conversations you're hearing them all at the same time.
00:13:34:13 - 00:13:39:23
Christina: It is the most maddening part of the social VR experience. I feel like they should be calling you.
00:13:40:00 - 00:13:52:12
Joel: Well they should. You know I get my number 5.5. I don't know I'm wondering whether they really you know grasp that idea or if they're just putting enough dev time on it.
00:13:52:14 - 00:13:59:00
Christina: You know anything like that I will be spending a lot of dev time to make sure that the visual fidelity the environment is the right place for people to feel comfortable.
00:13:59:03 - 00:14:12:15
Christina: I mean look they're they're tackling a huge uphill battle because they're building an entire immersive, interactive, social ecosystem from scratch, but I wonder if they aren't falling prey to some of the same issues which is it's exactly what's happening.
00:14:12:17 - 00:14:26:25
Joel: Because if you were in a party, let's say a room with 15 people, in real well in the real world your brain, would be able to filter out who's important or not so who's important, but what's important to listen to and what's not, right you don't have that problem when you go to a party like everybody's talking.
00:14:26:29 - 00:14:31:18
Christina: I can't hear at the end there at the same volume but it's because you're in VR. Yeah.
00:14:31:20 - 00:14:45:03
Joel: Again your filter is suspended. So what rec room and all the others they have to figure out how to create effectively a brain importance filter, that you can apply for you point at someone and say like this is the person I want to be talking to right now.
00:14:45:06 - 00:14:54:03
Christina: Don't turn everybody off. I don't want to silence everybody else. But I would like to bring this person's audio up or bring down everybody else, so that I can hear what you're saying better.
00:15:16:24 - 00:15:56:01
Marcie: Yeah I think that also when you start putting yourself in these other experiences that you've never been in before, everything is heightened. Everything is very different than what you're used to. And even when you go back into reality it does change things because I will tell you, I go in some of those chat rooms with you and it's almost like being in a playground with lots of kids running around and everybody's saying hey me me me me. Now when I go to a party and there's all these people around I am hearing. I feel like I'm in space.
00:15:56:13 - 00:16:11:19
Christina: That's what VR does and we don't want to spend too much time talking about VR necessarily because you know a lot to cover but, but it actually you will have flashbacks to VR experiences every year when it does. Yeah absolutely. I mean you're the neuroscientist. Yeah I was there. Yeah tell us.
00:16:11:23 - 00:16:45:24
Joel: Yeah it's it's a VR it's such a more than a just a valid experience right. Chemically, the brain doesn't know the difference between reality and virtual reality. So in a sense by spending a lot of time in virtual reality, we're learning a new form of interaction. And just by virtue of that, we're then going to behave that way, when we go back in the real world, whatever that means you know so it's entirely possible that we've been retraining our brains to accommodate things that we would experience in virtual reality, so maybe all brain filter is not working very well.
00:16:45:26 - 00:17:06:00
Joel: I have some other proof of this. I gave the example of the party in the real world before I actually do have a lot of problems filtering out and being able to hear specific conversation. So I had my hearing tested, and my hearing's fine. So it's an attention thing. I started asking fellow composers and sound people whether they had the same problem, the answer was universally yes.
00:17:06:02 - 00:17:37:11
Joel: So what seems is going on is that our sound people we've trained our brains, specifically to listen to so many different elements, to be aware of so many different elements, that we've effectively suppressing our brain sound filtering and so go into these kinds of situations where there's a barrage of noise becomes very difficult. So I think it's equivalent to that. We've retrained our brains to suspend filters, so in a sense we're not missing anything. We're getting closer and closer to manifest reality right? But it's hard to then decipher it.
00:17:37:21 - 00:18:29:00
Christina: Yeah yeah I heard I heard an interesting story about home alone the movie Home Alone recently where they were saying that the for John Williams did the score, it was this cartoonish fun cute movie and that the moment that John, they happened to somehow snag John Williams and like it was just one of those great you know show biz stories where they thought about the most incredible composer they could work with and they ended up getting him miraculously. And they were talking about the difference between the movie before John Williams score and after John Williams score was night and day, it turned it into an emotional film and one that connected with audiences on a much much deeper level. So why do you think we we put so much emphasis on visuals when we were so clearly emotionally connected to score?
00:18:29:02 - 00:19:08:03
Joel: I think it's the way our brains are wired because visual stimuli, things that we see, travel much more to our conscious brain, the conscious parts of our brain, whereas the auditory side of things, sounds, music, they are connecting directly to to our emotional brain, which is by nature unconscious, subconscious and so visual gets more attention because it's right there where we're literally aware of it consciously, and sound even though it's doing you know really important work and actually shifting all our physiology as we experience things, we're not necessarily aware of it.
00:19:08:05 - 00:20:26:25
Joel: And that's what I tell fellow sound people and composers is that they have to make that peace with the fact that sound is always gonna be an afterthought. And you know the last thing on the budget, it's the last thing they think about or whatever it's always is to be an afterthought, because of that, it's because we are not consciously aware of it. And ever more important than for us a sound people to become evangelizers about sound and wave the flag and say remember, remember, you know sound is important and you'll use that to go Oh yeah that's right forgot about sound. What's also curious is our eyes. You know they're just in case they're pointing forward. I think only the middle, Ninety degrees season 3D and the rest of it up to 120. The periphery is not even in 3-D, where a sound is our only real 360 sense. And what's it for? It's because it is our main survival tool. And why is it connected to our unconscious brain? It's because when we're going to react to an imminent danger we want to react as a reflex. We don't want think about it. You know you wanna be able to react spontaneously. So if a elephant. Let's not say never heard of of animals is coming over the hill.
00:20:26:27 - 00:20:29:12
Christina: Yeah. We're in the Lion King. They're coming over, the wildebeasts....
00:20:30:05 - 00:20:38:18
Joel: You can hear them long before you can see them. You can take action. But for that to happen it needs to be, you know, needs to be visceral in the correct sense of the word right?
00:20:38:22 - 00:20:52:21
Christina: I mean we could wrap it out there, but I want it while I've got you, I was I was curious, when you're composing something like the David Attenborough documentaries and how, whats your process, how do you look at a scene and decide you're going to go with a certain kind of sonic journey?
00:20:52:23 - 00:21:30:19
Joel: Well, I think the again back to emotion, which is music's real job is to help fill in the value the meaning of what a person is seeing. You know they can be listening to people talk but don't attribute any specific emotion to it. So the first question I think composers always ask themselves is what what is the emotion here? What do we want to feel? feel? Whose point of view is that emotion from? And you start there and that informs the harmonic choices that you're going to make, because harmony is really what delineates a particular emotion like a major chord will delineate a positive, a happy emotion, a minor chord minor try Apple to delineate a sad one.
00:21:30:21 - 00:22:26:17
Joel: So you'll start there maybe only slightly then you'll start thinking about the melodic content. In the case of the Attenborough documentaries what we're dealing with is animals and plants who don't speak all right? And so we have to anthropomorphize a lot and say well this is a cute little frog. And what would a cute little frog theme be like? Would it be angry and dark? No it probably would be kind of quirky and cute. So then you think in those kind of terms anthropomorphic terms, about what we're trying to say here and attribute a little theme to each of these characters and then the theme becomes what we call a leitmotif in music, which becomes effectively a motif that you can then embellish in different ways, because you're telling a subtext, always with the music you're helping people know that
something is happening, not just to the emotion but you know you know Darth Vader is coming because you hear his theme, even before you see him.
00:22:26:19 - 00:22:57:26
Joel: And so we'll do that same kind of thing where you implant subtly these themes and then you know frogs back, you know. So that's really a little bit of process and you're doing all of this within the confines that you have to write it from here to here, with only this palette of instruments. So it's a really, it's a different kind of challenge to writing songs. I like to think of composing score as you become creative vertically, right because you don't have the luxury of the horizontal or do anything you want to write about anything you want, the confines that are there, are very very tight.
00:22:57:28 - 00:23:15:04
Joel: And so what you explore is vertically, Well how am I going to orchestrate this out and how am I going to tell this moment that is five seconds long, in a way that is rich, that does its job well, that stays out of the way of dialogue, that you know serves all of these different purposes, but it's still a very satisfying moving experience.
00:23:15:06 - 00:23:22:17
Christina: Well right now we're going to play for you a piece set shall compose. This is a piece that he has selected for us and enjoy right.
00:25:10:26 - 00:25:18:24
Mike: The massive underwater life from documentary Galapagos Nature's Wonderland with Sir David Attenborough is available on our Web site.
00:25:24:22 - 00:26:30:04
Marcie: Joel, I have a question for you because I think is really important. So in the world of being encased or immersed, let's say whether in VR, AR, MR, right now the way in which the world reacts to interactive is you're holding hand controllers, which are ultimately having you do things that you would normally do with your voice. So if I have to pick up a ball, I have to use a hand controller to do that. Sometimes I may have a glove that ultimately that is what it will be soon. But when are we going to get to the voice. In reality, if I say hey I want you to move that chair, so we'll walk over and be able to move the chair or if I want to pick up an object I can just pick it up. But I believe that voice is gonna be so important to to all of the functionality of the inside and immersed. How are we going to get there and what do we need? What are the tools we need? What are the ways in which the ecosystem will grow in order for us to get there to make voice that such a big part about this immersive world that we're gonna be living in?
00:26:30:10 - 00:26:52:09
Joel: I think all the technology is already there. We know it is because we go got Siri and Alexa, you know hey Google, and are you know, amply capable of voice recognition and understanding what it is we want to do. They're just not too many examples of people using it. And we do it we use it Yeah we use it but not in a let's say nanotech augmented or virtual reality situation.
00:26:52:22 - 00:27:16:24
Christina: Our Sundance piece. Well it was an interactive voice activated branching narrative and a volumetric shared subject and the viewer. And it used IBM Watson to do that language A.I. and voice recognition. I think that it's more about understanding you know getting the word out on things like this podcast about to the creators that that is possible.
00:27:16:26 - 00:27:40:27
Joel: I think it's about you know figuring out what value it can bring. And if people have an experience where they're able to use that use voice and realize well this is much better than using the controller, for certain things it'll work better, for other things it won't. And start to explore that then I think it'll stick. You know it'll become pretty much kind of the default way that we will engage with you know these virtual worlds.
00:27:41:05 - 00:28:10:09
Joel: But I think the technologies they all you need is you know the will to create some experiences that committee showcase it. And I think if we do that now we'll have something obviously we can find kind of medical applications in the health area. So my my suspicion is as has been happening anyway in the world of XR, that utility type experiences are going to end up driving this kind of a move towards fully using voice activation because it's not easy to do.
00:28:10:11 - 00:28:25:10
Christina: And you know it's expensive it's not easy to do and so if you tell somebody you want it for your Tribeca artistic installation you might have trouble getting the kind of developers and budget you need to do a really compelling experience. But if you are doing it just train it a medical technician and they can do their job better.
00:28:25:12 - 00:28:31:17
Joel: Yeah yeah yeah absolutely. So I think we all going to see it. We just need a little bit of more and more in that direction.
00:28:31:21 - 00:29:06:28
Marcie: And then move away from just you know XR content creation, I want to talk a little bit about traditional content creation. As I say very often, it's not just about XR, it's about you know this new world that we're living in of social media, of all of this way that people are creating content and people are trying to make it a simple process. If I record audio, if I put a cut together, I can just marry those two things and all of a sudden will I have a tik tok video that's really cool and really great for the masses to see.
00:29:07:00 - 00:29:24:14
Marcie: How do you make people realize ultimately that it does take a special person who is trained to do this work and not just allow it to be my day we're like anybody can record on their iPhone like what's the difference between you know I just I amateur. Yeah yeah.
00:29:24:16 - 00:29:39:09
Marcie: Because I think that that's something that's really important for a lot of people out there that have worked all their lives as an editor, as a sound editor, as a sound engineer, as a mixer, as you know as a sound boom holder.
00:29:39:17 - 00:30:00:00
Marcie: You know a mic holder, I mean these are jobs that are very important to the 10 percent, let's call it that, the studios and those sort of. But when you bring in Silicon Valley and you bring in these technology companies, they think that they can create these automated platforms in order to have content creation become automated.
00:30:00:02 - 00:30:30:20
Joel: I'm actually okay with it. I'm in favor of the kind of democratization of media creation because it introduces people even at a basic level to these processes they understand it better. And I just have a belief that even if everyone is doing it to some degree, the cream still rises to the top. You know there will always be a place for people that do it better, and what they will create will be better. What is the bigger question in my mind is there still going to be a demand for high quality content?
00:30:30:22 - 00:31:01:05
Joel: You know if we take audio as the example most people seem satisfied with the crappy sounding MP 3, you know just as you know not so long ago people were happy with a crappy sounding tape. That's right. And because of that you know it's felt a lot like being a race to the bottom, in terms of quality of production. But I think there is always a place to push the high fidelity and the the skill sets that are necessary to do that kind of thing. And I think we need to do what we do. But I have no problem with everybody else trying to do it because I think it's a gateway.
00:31:01:07 - 00:31:36:17
Joel: So for a lot of people into this well and some of these jobs you know in terms of cutting and stuff they are actually pretty annoyingly boring. And if we can find ways to automate that to simplify those thing we should do it. You know we've already gone from you know extremely complex and very, very expensive gear in order to be able to record a song. And now you can do it on your phone and you can actually compose and I think that's wonderful. You know I think it's a really, really good thing, because it means that the price of admission is a lot, lot, lot more accessible a lot cheaper for people.
00:31:36:19 - 00:31:48:04
Joel: So everyone I believe that everybody is a creative. Really everybody is creative and this allows people to start to explore their own creativity. That for me can only be a good thing.
00:31:48:06 - 00:31:56:28
Christina: Well I think that is a perfect note to wrap up on and everybody should explore their creativity, go out and do something creative this week. The tools are there.
00:31:57:00 - 00:32:30:11
Joel: Exactly I'll put it I'll put it you know one one extra way, which is you know sometimes you think about the question is life a science or is it an art? It's definitely an art. And we are all doing it too. We all do the best the very best that we can. And so, if living is an art, we're all artists. I think living a life is one hundred million creative acts that we do every day. And so we all are creators and even if we don't realize that realize it ourselves and by focusing in on that aspect of ourselves, it means not only can we can create wonderful things but you can create a wonderful life for yourself.
00:32:30:16 - 00:32:35:00
Marcie: And I love that. All right guys that's it for us this week.
00:32:35:02 - 00:32:41:16
Christina: Thank you Joel. Thank you Joel so much for joining us and thank you for letting us record in your beautiful recording studio.
00:32:41:18 - 00:33:05:07
Joel: It's an honor to be on this broadcast and I wish you the very best of luck and I hope you know it spreads around, because I think what you guys are touching on here is is really important, people to start so we're all ready for the second level. We're ready to get at it with maximum ease of our lives definitely definitely and we want everyone out there to keep in touch with us
00:33:13:28 - 00:33:16:15
Marcie: Michael Matzdorff. Thank you for editing
00:33:22:26 - 00:33:26:04
Christina: Abbey Tate thank you so much for your help producing. See you soon.