Episode 05: Ashley Crowder of VNTANA
Today we welcome Ashley Crowder, Co-founder and CEO of VNTANA, an industry leading augmented reality platform that allows brands to easily create interactive hologram experiences. VNTANA recently launched Omnichannel 3D Automation Software allowing the creation of 3D web, AR and VR experiences in minutes rather than weeks.
Episode Notes
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About Ashley Crowder:
Website: www.VNTANA.com
Christina: Welcome to the 2nd Level. I'm Christina Heller
Marcie: And I'm Marcie Jastrow.
Christina: Glad to be back. It's always good to see you, Marcie
Marcie: I know. How you doing, Christina? It's been about a week or so.
Christina: Good. Good. As usual, I'm really excited about today's guest. We overlap a little bit. We both fall into what some people would categorize as holograms, let me introduce our guest today. Ashley Crowder, who is the CEO of VNTANA, a hologram and mixed reality company. VNTANA has created holograms for virtual shopping experiences for Adidas, Intel, Lexis, and they just launched their own 3D asset platform. Thank you so much for joining us!
Ashley: Thanks so much for having me.
Christina: It's really exciting. You VNTANA has been around for eight years,
Ashley: Right? Almost eight years, which is pretty crazy.
Christina: It is amazing. Amazing. So how, how did you get into this line of work? Cause nobody. As a child fantasizes about going into, you know, 3D asset platforms and holograms. So, what was your path to getting here?
Ashley: Yeah, I wish it had been an option, right. I, so I did engineer school at USC, and back then, you know, you went into aerospace or oil and I ended up working oil refinery for a while, but I then got connected. So, USC engineering has a partnership with the military called ICT, where the military funds research in mixed reality development. And I got involved there. And it was like, this is the future. This is what I've always wanted to do because it combines that creativity with engineering.
Christina: What was it that like sparked that this is what I want to do. If you don't mind taking me, take me to that moment. Right. And what was it about it that got you so excited?
Ashley: At the time I was working at an oil refinery and it was not my passion. So, on the weekends I started programming light shows for DJs, which was way more fun. Um, and again, combining that love of art and tech together, it was kind of the first thing that really did that for me. And then got intrigued, you know, as you talk to people and network. I got introduced to people at ICT and I went in for a tour and just realize, you know, my mind was open to this whole new spatial computing world and this, this was over 15 years ago. So, you know, it was still very nascent because phones weren't capable of AR yet , you know, there were no headsets available on the market but I just knew this is going to change every single industry and I wanted to be a part of that change.
Christina: And so then you decided to start with in VNTANA, what process, what was that process like of starting your own company and, and how did you decide which, which aspect of mixed reality you wanted to tackle?
Ashley: Right. I think, you know, at the time it was looking at what was doable and affordable as, as Marcie was mentioning, you know, creating volumetric captures of people is, is expensive and it's continuing to drop. And Christina, you're doing amazing work to make this more affordable and real. But, eight years ago, it just wasn't doable. And we were working with these DJs who wanted, you know, me to bring the light show to the next level. And I was like, well, what about holograms? You know, uh, and I was like, Hey, you could play multiple venues at the same time. We'll live stream. You're in your hologram using Pepper's ghost. So, we would still only need a 2D video at the time, which is all you could stream even streaming to the videos. Kind of impressive today.
Christina: I mean, even today, so you know, if you're new to the podcast, you may not know, but I, I run a volumetric video company. We do 3D performance capture of real people in real performances. We call them sometimes holograms because there really isn't a great term to describe a volumetric video capture. I see the word capture just in general, it always kind of like, Oh, I do human capture. People are like, Oh, that's pretty vague.
Marcie: What I find really very interesting about what you both do is that traditional people in content creation still have no idea what volumetric capture is or, or what hologram creation is.
Ashley: And part of that is, you know what we found? So, we started working with DJs, every person who paid us was a brand, brand sponsors were really our clients and at the end of the day. A brand doesn't care what you call it, they want an amazing experience and they want to be able to engage fans. And that's what we discovered. And you know, we, we had people being like, that's not a true hologram. It's like, okay, well it's, yes, it's holographic projection with a 2D video, but it looks like that person's on stage and that's what our client wants. And our client wants to call it a hologram
Christina: Yeah, and to be honest, people tell me all the time, what we're doing isn't really a hologram either. And I said, I know, but. Until we have a better term.
Ashley: Right. And part of it's fluid because everyone's inventing this stuff as we go. So, and it's how do you. Talk about in a way for people to understand. So that's, you know, starting the company was crazy. You know, I called my friend Ben, we'd always thrown around business ideas and he was backpacking in Asia because he hated his job at the time and quit. And I was like, get back here and help me start this company., and he did. He was like on a mountain in Nepal, and I was like yelling at him that he didn't have service. He was like, all right, I'll come back. Like, yeah. yeah. And it was crazy. And you know, we built it through events. You know, events are a great way to bring in cash and grow the business and get more use cases. And we, you know, worked with everyone from Intel, Adidas, Microsoft, to farm equipment companies who couldn't bring a cow to a conference and they wanted to show how their equipment works.
Christina: Oh my gosh
Marcie: that's so funny. You actually did a hologram of the cow. Yes.
Christina: What did the cow do?
Ashley: This has happened twice now to hologram cows. It's very, you know, farming is huge, and in the U S you will want the sexy, you know, Adidas, Nike, but like a lot of our business is. Started to show products that were really hard to show in real life. So this one was, it was equipment that helped milk cows and our hologram explained how that should have the cow walk in and show what happened, and really helped convey this at a conference where we couldn't do that and then same with DJI you know, they launched their Phantom 4 drone at SXSW a few years ago, and production got held up and they weren't going to actually have a drone for the conference, and we created an interactive hologram experience. So, people get still technically fly this new drone.
Marcie: Well, I couldn't imagine that for product design when the design is not finished yet, it gives you a really good idea of what it could potentially look like, and then being able to do everything around that. So, for the marketing, being able to place exactly what you need when you need it, I think that's a fascinating attempt at understanding why it is so important to have 3D assets.
Ashley: It's huge. And so, as we were doing this for DJI, of course, we got hired 10 days before SXSW, we're like, we can do it. Uh, and they sent us their manufacturing 3D model, which was, over 2 gigs. It's huge. You can't, you can't do much with that. Um, and traditionally, you know, a 3D artist would have to sit there and manually shrink it down, decimate the mesh, strip things out, make it small, because you don't need every screw. And then converted
Marcie: And decide if the software is actually conducive to what it is that they're working in.
Ashley: Right? Yes. Yes. So, what we ended up doing, cause this, we kept running into this problem with DJI, their drone, Lexis, their car. So, we ended up writing lots of software to automatically optimize and convert these assets. and we, we've used that ourselves and about two years ago we started licensing it to our clients and saying, you know, Shaw jewelry has over 4,000 pieces of jewelry. There's no way they could afford to hire a 3D artist. So right here try using our software. And that works really great. And so that's why we started kind of building out more features and officially launched it two weeks ago.
Christina: Isn’t that funny how eight years ago you wouldn't have thought you would be building a platform for 3D assets, but your kind of inadvertently discovered there was this hole in the market and this need
Ashley: Right, exactly. I was programming light shows for DJ’s very different. Uh, and yeah, it was, it was just kind of, I think that goes to just listening to your clients and opening your eyes if you keep having the same problem. Other people probably are too. And now that phones are capable of augmented reality and web can support 3D, and you've got millions of Oculus and other headsets on the market. Everyone has a huge need for these 3D assets. And so, when we talk, you know, with a lot of the apparel company, I was just at PI apparel last week, every apparel company is figuring out what is their 3D strategy. And they have. Now, people titled 3D asset manager, that's like a title in these companies now, which is super interesting. That job didn't exist before.
Christina: Yeah. And so, take us through some of the, the use cases. So, you know, if I'm sitting at home and I'm wondering, well, why does an apparel company need a 3D asset manager? Can you explain a little more of why., all these retail companies are thinking this way?
Ashley: Right? So, Ikea was one of the forerunners in this space, creating the first, AR app where you could, place furniture in your home. They've seen a 35% increase in revenue.
Christina: Really, it's real.
Marcie: Yeah, Really. Houzz is doing the same thing.
Ashley: Houzz doing the same thing- Houzz saw an 11 X increase in conversions 11 X
Christina: And what do you contribute that to you? Because people could just see it as you can.
Marcie: Because for the first time you can actually look at something, look at the scale of it, see how it's going to fit in the room, and see if it actually goes with what it is you're trying to create inside your room, whereas before, it's a flat 2D object. That's why it was so huge when, when Ashley told me she was building this 3D repository for assets.
Ashley: There are companies out there that are, that looked at this problem and they created a marketplace. So, there are, there is CG trader and Sketchfab. You can go on there and buy a random couch. What we're really focused on is that enterprise solution. So, Ikea is not going to allow their couch to be on those. But we're helping Ikea do this, or, or whoever. Um, but yes, it's being able to virtually see that. And then even for shoes, you know, being able to hold up your phone and see the shoe on your foot and do virtual try-on and so that's kind of the consumer engagement piece, which is proven to increase sales. So, look, everyone should be doing this to increase your sales. But on top of that. people are saving lots of money in prototyping.
So, before you would design a product and you would physically make one, it was very expensive. You'd ship it, then you'd need to do a product shoot. It's extremely expensive. And when you look at the fact that. You know, eCommerce is continuously growing. You know, on Amazon, if you have an Amazon store, you the best is about seven pictures of your product. So, if you start thinking about how much content that is, if you're Adidas or UnderArmour, who launches 25,000 products a year, you need to do that many product shoots, you needed that many prototypes. If you have a better three, the assets that can go from design to marketing. You don't need to make a prototype. You don't need to have a product shoot, because you can do everything digitally. So, it's saving tons of money and time.
Marcie: Well, and it's the whole concept of not having the 3D print your product and being able to actually have the physical, you can see it physically and, the best part is once all the wearables get out there and we decide which wearables are going to be winning, you now have all these 3D assets created so that you can create the experiences and there will be reasons behind having all this in the wearable.
Christina: Yeah, totally. What, what's your, what are your feelings on wearables.
Ashley: I'm very hopeful for wearables, you know, I think when we say wearables,
Christina: And when we say wearables, we mean like AR wearables is AR glasses
Ashley: Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, I'm very hopeful. I mean, I will say, you know, I just like you guys would go to augmented world expo every year. And last year there was a guy walking around wearing an AR headset, and everyone looked at him like he was crazy. And I was like, okay, if you can't wear headset. At a Silicon Valley AR conference, you cannot wear it anywhere. Um, but I think it all comes down to design. So, you know, I cannot wait for Apple to release their headset. They obviously know what they're doing with design and functionality and I think that's exciting. I also, you know, again, because I worked at an oil refinery, we don't care what we look like. I wear a fireproof onesie and a hard hat and goggles every day. Anyways, if you could add on an AR headset to that, that would help me do my job better. That's incredible. And so, the other area we're seeing people use these 3D assets for is creating training materials and being able to better visualize and manufacturer and bring facilities.
Christina: Do you see that as a potential watershed moment for your company? if consumer wearables become a thing, does that transform everything you've been doing into this totally new model?
Ashley: I think it, it is just, we're riding that wave, right? I think it's a way of coming and it will just further expand the need for all of this. But the fact that even just as 3D version of your product on your website has proven to double conversion rates for Shopify. Everyone has a website today.
Marcie: Well, and that's the other thing that I think that, you know, we're missing a step. Jennifer from positive trend, and I used to talk about this a lot, where you would look at a website and people would take their traditional brochure that they would write. Their collateral material that was paper, and they would hand that to the person who would ultimately be their customer. And then from there, that same piece of collateral ended up on a website and they didn't do anything. They just literally copy and pasted everything that was on that piece of collateral.
Now as you look at websites, websites are more interactive. And so, you want to be able to have functionality that you didn't have in any of the stuff prior. So, where I think it's all going to go is it will be webAR will be web based, you will have interactive websites that people will start getting used to. Ease of use, understanding why I need it to be 3D. Why do I need to look at it, turn it, spin it, interact with it, and then it's just a gradual move to what the wearable will be? I guarantee you. five years from now, people will be wearing wearables because do you really want to be your, your head in your, in your phone the whole time? I mean, you're walking around, you can get hurt.
Ashley: I've seen the Pokémon go people walking off a cliff.
Marcie: Exactly. People died. And so, at some point this is going to have to change also the computing power of where it's going to take it. Now you're talking heavy 3D models of all different types of things.
Ashley: But that's what's so exciting with 5g and the way we've built our platform. It's all API based. So, nothing's going to be on your phone. It's, it's, we're streaming it to phone, and we built dynamic streaming. So, if you have an iPhone 11 and I have an iPhone 6, you're going to get a better quality than I'm going to see, cause it's going to change for performance.
Christina: Yeah. How are the load times on, on the 3D assets?
Ashley: It's pretty quick, even on traditional internet, because again, we've built that dynamic, a rendering so that it's going to adjust quality for performance. Yeah.
Marcie: Based on. Yeah. Based on what you have.
Christina: We definitely have a lot of conversations around that I, you know, long like short volumetric captures tend to do ok. The longer ones, we're still grappling with, you know, load times. So yeah, I'll be eager to try see if our assets work on the platform as well.
Ashley: Yeah, Let's do it.
Christina So Ashley, eight years is a really long time to have a startup not only survive and thrive, but particularly in this nascent industry that has still yet to find like a healthy market. what was it like to see them that the 2014 -2015 start to kick in? What do you think has been the secret to VNTANA’s longevity and success?
Ashley: Oh my gosh, it was incredible. I mean, when we, because we first initially started the company in 2012 and we'd said, you know, we're doing holograms and people thought we're talking like stickers that changed. No StarWars! Come to our office, and then we needed an office so we couldn't afford one at the time because we didn't raise money and us. Walked by, it was actually in Santa Monica across the street from beats by Dre. This building was half a hundred construction walked in. The owner happened to be there, and we were like, Hey, we have $600 can we use this finished conference room until the building is ready? When then your real tenants can move in? And he was like, yeah. Free money to me. Sure. I can't really rent out this place. So, we got an office in Santa Monica for three months for $600 and like set up, set up our first holographic system and had demos. People probably thought we were crazy with, oh yeah, we're across the street from beats by Dre and they come in and they be like, do we need a hard hat?
It's fine. Just come in here. So, cause the demo was so important because we didn't know what we were talking about. And then, you know, Pokémon go happened a few years later and we were like, thank God, because now people have some form of reference. It wasn't exactly what we were doing, but it's like, Oh, you know, Pokémon go, you see that digital's thing on your table. That's kind of like a hologram and it gave us, you know, it just grew from there because then people knew what we were doing.
Marcie: I would like to understand how you're using your marketing dollars and how you're using any social media. What is your marketing plan?
Ashley: You know, there is no silver bullet. I think you need that combination of face to face networking with people. In the beginning we made relationships with tons of advertising agencies saying, Hey, this is a product that's available. Let your clients know about it. And they knew tons of brands. That was great in the beginning of course, SEO, you know, Google AdWords, all of that is so important. And then it's such a still today, every time people come into our office and see what we're doing, they're like, this is so much cooler than what's on your website. And it's so hard to convey an immersive 3D experience on a 2D screen. So, it's, it's a combination of demos and networking and having great events and digital.
Marcie So where do you see the company in five years?
Ashley: In five years, we want to be the platform to help create a 3D version of everything in the world. So, we want to be that one stop shop that helps you get your 3D version of your product anywhere you need it in a matter of seconds instead of weeks.
Christina: Well, that's awesome I always feel like I learn things when I hang out with Ashley.
Marcie: I know.
Christina: Yes. I mean, we are, we are peers, but I definitely look up to her. thank you so much for coming on today. It's been a really, really interesting conversation. I'm sure that some people who are listening can probably use. What you're selling right now today, which is exciting cause that's not always the case. Thank you so much for super excited. How can people find you?
Ashley: You can find us at our website VNTANA.com.
Christina: Awesome. Great. Well thanks and thank you for listening.
Marcie: good seeing you, Christina, by Ashley.
Christina: Bye. Bye.
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